Taipei Metal

Interview: Chthonic - Part 2

TaipeiMetal: Chthonic is well known for incorporating Taiwanese folklore and history into its music. On the new album, what sort of stories were you writing about?
 
Freddie Lim: It’s kind of complicated but it’s related to the 228 incident*. The main character is a young priest in a temple in Nantou County. The temple was the final battleground of the 228 incident.
 
TM: Do you ever see Chthonic going in a different direction lyrically, or will it always be about Taiwanese folklore?
 
FL: Mainly we will keep this direction. This album is about Taiwanese folklore and Taiwanese history but also reveals the philosophy of Oriental hell. It’s not just about the old stories of Taiwan but we try to have some new creative themes in the album too.

TM: Do you think because you incorporate history into your music that’s what gets you noticed in the metal world?
 
FL: Yeah I think that’s one of the reasons. But I think most importantly, Chthonic doesn’t just follow the other metal bands in the world. We have our own concepts and values and we always follow that. f

 TM: What are some of those values and concepts that you follow?
 
FL: Most of the black metal band will write something about Satan, vampires or even some Scandinavian folklore, but…
 
Jesse Liu: It’s not us. We have to have our own style.
 
FL: We write something about ourselves and our ancestors that’s more concrete.

TM: You guys worked with Rob Caggianno on this album. What was it like having him as a producer this time?
 
FL: It was a totally different experience?
 
TM: How so?
 
JL: It’s more exhausting.
 
FL: The first few albums that we produced in Denmark, we kind of got used to the way they produce. In Europe…
 
JL: …the sound production is more smooth…
 
FL:…beautiful.
 
JL:…not that raw. Everything has to be smooth, beautiful, like a machine. Rob wants to feel the emotion.
 
FL: I think it’s two totally different directions, the European way and the American way. So the experience we had in Europe was almost useless in America. Because when we find the right sound of the vocals in the first song we thought we should keep that sound for the whole record; that’s what we did in Europe. But Rob said “No, definitely not. We should try to find the right sound for each song.”
 
TM: And you said it was more exhausting so he really pushed you guys.
 
JL: He’s kind of an old-school guy, so he wants everything to be one take.
 
FL: You have to play the song from the top. So when we make a mistake in some bars in the middle then we have to start again from the top. And when we finally made it in one take from the top to the end he would say, “Wow, this is what I need. Let’s have five more.” So it took us like thirty times to make it perfect from the top to the end. But then he said let’s have five more.
 
TM: But you guys didn’t have that long in the studio, only three weeks, right?
 
FL: We extended the schedule. I have gone back and recorded more vocals and Jesse, almost everybody, Danny, delayed and required more days.
 
TM: Do you think it was a valuable experience having him push you so hard?
 
FL: Yeah, when I recorded in Denmark I can record two or three songs per day and because they don’t understand English that well they don’t really care about the lyrics. But when we recorded the album with Rob he will adjust the lyrics a lot.
 
JL: And his pronunciation.
 
FL: And he will correct the grammar and lots of things. For the first song, it took me two days to finish that, and I was so frustrated because I thought I should finish three songs per day, but I finished one song in two days. And then when we finished the whole record Rob said “Let’s go back to the first song again,” and it took me only two hours to finish that one. So it really developed our techniques and our…
 
JL: …patience.
 
FL: Yeah, Jesse almost wanted to hit Rob.
 
TM: Did you get into some arguments with Rob?
 
JL: No, he just kept saying “Let’s do it one more time.”
 
FL: “That’s perfect, but give me two more.”
 
TM: So would you work with him again?
 
FL: Yeah it was fun, and now we are stronger and better.
 
TM: Not many people know about metal in Taiwan yet. They know about you guys, but if you were going to describe the Taiwan metal scene to someone who knew nothing about it, what would you say?
 
FL: It’s really hard to explain because most of the people know us but it’s really hard to change them into a metal fan. They might be a Chthonic fan but they are not a metal fan. So sometimes we try to play with the bands we like, like Dark Funeral, Mayhem, and we try to let our fans learn more about metal, not just Chthonic. We hope that after they enjoy the show with Chthonic and Mayhem or Chthonic and Dark Funeral they can sort of like Dark Funeral and Mayhem as well. But I think it didn’t work well. I think it takes time for a person to be a true metal fan. It’s really hard to make a Linkin Park fan into a metal fan. But we will keep trying. The Taiwanese metal scene is still very…
 
JL: …young.
 
FL: …and small. And we as members of Chthonic try to have an exchange and make more people into metal fans. And I think the potential of the metal scene in Taiwan should be very big, because metal should be very strong in a country like Taiwan because we struggle in a very complicated situation. In international society we have so many different kinds of pressure that come from the Taiwanese government, from the Chinese government, from international society. We have so much anger inside of us. So it’s not right that you express the anger in a karaoke booth. You should shout out, you should scream, not drink in a karaoke booth. That’s wrong, that’s in a peaceful world.
 
TM: You mentioned the scene is very young. Why do you think it has taken longer for metal to develop here than in other parts of the world.
 
JL: I think it’s because of the culture.
 
FL: I think it’s because of the karaoke culture. It’s very hard to let this kind of music grow up in Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, or Singapore because most of the young people, they get used to listening to music with beautiful melodies they can follow and sing along in a Karaoke booth. So when the listen to metal or punk, they don’t know how to listen to it. They don’t know how to enjoy it. They don’t know how to listen to music where you should focus on the whole thing, not just the vocals, the melody, or if you can sing or not. In the U.S. or Europe you guys don’t go to the karaoke booth all the time. Even rap or hip hop in Taiwan is very young, a small scene as well because you can’t rap in a karaoke booth. So I think it’s about the culture.
 
TM: So was Chthonic the first extreme metal band in Taiwan?
 
FL: There might have been some extreme cover bands that covered Death, Obituary, Carcass, as I can remember. But I think we are the first original extreme metal band in Taiwan.
TM: And that’s over 10 years ago now, right?
 
FL: Yeah, 12 or 13 years.
 
TM: Everyone knows that Chthonic is in favor of Taiwanese independence. Will you continue to use Chthonic as a way to spread that message around the world?
 
FL: I think I will continue to use whatever I have to express my public values. Not just for Taiwan independence. In my own philosophy I think Taiwan is already independent, I just need international society to accept us. So not just about Taiwan, also about Tibet, human rights freedom, lots of things. I will use whatever I have.
 
TM: What do you hope for Taiwan’s future?
 
FL: The same, for international society to accept us. This time with the poison milk Taiwan was almost the last country to know about that because we are not a member of the WHO. So we drank that milk one more week than the whole world. That’s stupid. It’s not just about the politicians, it’s about the health of the citizens of Taiwan.
 
TM: Say one day a long time from now when your music days are finished, would you ever consider running for elected office?
 
FL: I don’t know. That’s not the plan right now. I can’t have too many girlfriends so I should have something else to do compared to Jesse. Jesse has Chthonic, Infernal Chaos, and girlfriend first, girlfriend second, girlfriend third. Then I should think about another girlfriend. But I think that’s one way to achieve the goal because I hate both parties in Taiwan and it’s very hard for a band or a citizen to change something. I just realized this in the past couple days, because I was thinking so hard about what I should do next year, the year after next year. That might be one of the options in the future.
 
TM: Some people say that music and politics don’t go together. What would you say to those people?
 
 
FL: I think I envy those people.
 
TM: Why?
 
FL: We have no choice as a Taiwanese. If a Taiwanese says politics and music should not go together I think they are blind. But if a Canadian says that then I envy you because you are normal. You can decide lots of things. You have lots of options and you have a very normal political situation in your country. These days, with the financial collapse, but your country, Canada, is the most healthy bank system in the world. You are lucky, but we are not, especially since our government wants to connect to the Chinese economy that’s even worse. So as Taiwanese we don’t have a choice. If we don’t care about politics, politics will affect us. You will drink the poison milk for maybe one more month if you don’t do anything.
 
TM: Would you like to see more bands here in Taiwan become active politically? I’ve heard some bands here say they don’t want to touch it.
 
FL: Especially if they need some Chinese market. But I think and I hope that all the citizens of Taiwan should fight for their own rights. For Taiwan it’s not a governmental thing. You can’t always blame the government and say ‘You don’t do this, you don’t do that. Why don’t you fight for our rights in international society?’ You should do it yourself because you are Taiwanese. I hope that everybody, not just bands, should fight for yourself; movie directors, actors, actresses, everybody should do that.
 
TM: I’ve even heard some bands say they favor unification with China. How do you feel about that?
 
FL: The percentage of the population who support reunification is always less than ten percent, so that’s not the main value of Taiwanese society but I respect that because it’s a free country. You can say anything you want even if you support the communists. But you should still respect the main value of Taiwan. Most people want to keep democracy, they want to keep freedom, they want to keep freedom of speech, they want to keep human rights so most people want to keep independence, the don’t want reunification. If we can choose who we want to be along with, I think most of the people might choose America, might choose Japan, very few people would choose China, and most people would choose to keep independence.
 
TM: You guys have played Wacken and Ozzfest and you’ve reached the elite of the metal world. Where do you go from here?
 
FL: It’s kind of funny. When we started this band in 1996 I remember that in one meeting, all of the members, we tried to express our wish for this band. At that time I said I want to tour internationally, I want to release our albums internationally. And we did that in 2002. Then we toured lots of times and last year we had the biggest tour, so it’s kind of like my dream come true already. But now I have a new dream that I hope we can have more fans and all of the fans support our values and they can support Taiwan as well. So that’s my new dream. I hope I can get more attention, more media exposure and then I can help my people.
 
TM: So how will you do that?
 
FL: (laughing) I will say “Fuck America” in America. I don’t know. I don’t plan, I just follow my feelings.
 
TM: You mentioned you have done a lot of touring recently so who has been your favorite band to tour with so far?
 
FL: I think Ensiferum because they drink a lot. Jesse and C.J. like to hang out with the bands and they were the band that hung out the most. They drink daytime, nighttime, all the time, vodka.
 
TM: Where has been your favorite place to tour so far?
 
FL: Canada. Montreal. They are the best fans in the world. Before the show they do their homework. They try to remember the lyrics. They try to know our values and support our concept and sing along with us. And after the show they come to us not just for autographs or a photo shoot; they exchange their thoughts about our songs, our values and lots of things like friends, not just fans. They make me feel like they want to know more and they want to express their own feelings. It's just like a very good family.
 
TM: What is your prediction for the future of metal in Taiwan?
 
FL: It’s gonna be big. It’s gonna be bigger of course according to Chthonic’s plan for next year in Taiwan for February. Since I have tried to put lots of energy into the Taiwanese metal scene for the last ten years, I tried to get more bands like Megadeth and tried to promote metal shows, now I have some new plans for developing the Taiwanese metal scene. I found out that we should try to organize and build up a fashion, a culture, not just about the bands, not just about music. Metal should be a culture. In a cultural way you should try to explain the clothing, the lifestyle, the values, the music, and the anger. Not just try to explain to the young people what is the beauty of metal. That kind of thing is like a lesson. No, we should try to build up the fashion. When we release the new album in February I will try to lead a fashion and I will try to work with lots of magazine and medias and I will try to expand the value of metal in several ways at the same time. I hope that some of the people might start to be interested in metal in different ways.
 
TM: What’s Chthonic’s plans for 2009?
 
FL: Tour. New album and tour in Taiwan and tour internationally.
 
TM: Do you know where you’re going so far?
 
FL: We have gotten lots of offers from North America, Europe, Russia, and South America, Southeast Asia, so we’ll try to connect all the things and have a more logical way to do that.
 
TM: Have you been to South America before?
 
FL: No, I have heard that South America is crazy, the fans there.

Chthonic's fifth studio album, Mirror of Retribution, is due out in April of 2009.

* The 228 Incident also known as the 228 Massacre was an anti-government, anti-Chinese uprising in Taiwan that began on February 28, 1947 that was violently suppressed by the Kuomintang (KMT) government resulting in many civilian deaths. Estimates of the number of deaths vary widely from under one thousand to tens of thousands or more.[1][2] The Incident marked the beginning of the White Terror period in Taiwan in which thousands more Taiwanese vanished, were killed, or imprisoned. The number "228" refers to the day the massacre began, February 28 (1947-02-28). - Wikipedia